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Interview with Mark Asquith- CEO & Co-founder, Rebel Base Media

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Interview with Mark Asquith

Interview Highlights:

  • getting subscribers is silly, we should reach for FANS but we have to get them there
  • make a trailer that explains the show and what people should go to first, recommend your highest downloaded episode (you can indicate this in the host!)
  • shouting out to your listeners can make them fans!
  • fans for us should not be traditional FANS – they’re FRIENDS
  • ┬áMark shared his trailer format and suggests we all send people THERE not to subscribe


It looks it looks like it so thanks Rafi.

Unknown Speaker 0:03
Yeah, that’d be good. I should I do you know, I’m one of those people that like I kind of do want to know whether everyone is a captivate because Mike I feel like I should know everyone’s name but that gets really tough. So sorry

Unknown Speaker 0:15
Are we recording now? recording now? Yes, I’m recording now she’s a good person too. I mean she she and I both motion which is like for project.

Unknown Speaker 0:24
Yeah, no, she’s cool. Yeah, but one day maybe so sorry. Well, let’s try Kim answer today. If you do sign up She Podcasts calm slash captivate. No other link will do. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker 0:37
All right. Well, I guess I’ll turn it over to you after I’ve taken half your time. Let’s do it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, what you want to talk about now I’m gonna joking. I’ll do this little screen share thing. I’ll do this. This listener acquisition show flow. Kind of is not presentation ways. But it isn’t.

Unknown Speaker 0:55
Just to kind of teach people a little bit of kind of

Unknown Speaker 0:58
prospecting for podcasters. Because I think it’s one of those things that people struggle with, I don’t want to harp on about captivate like captivate exists. It’s a great host, if you’re in the market for one, use the She Podcasts link for it. So I’m gonna share my screen and we’re gonna talk about the listener acquisition flow. And just really, like why some of the podcasts marketing that used to work back in the day like 2011, when it just used to be subscribed to my show, like why that stuff’s not really working as much as it could do anymore. Because the world’s the world’s changed. So let’s do that. I’ll give you a little screen share. This is gonna be so good. Okay, so yeah, listener acquisition, and why the old shit doesn’t work. Can I call it that with the word shit in it? I would like to do that. if that’s okay with you. You know me, I swear more than anyone. Right? You can probably enhance that like several times over cost. Yeah, perfect. Perfect. Perfect. All right, here we go.

Unknown Speaker 1:47
And you see my screen. Jessica.

Unknown Speaker 1:50
wicked, wicked, wicked. You’ll notice at the top here, the very important COVID. tracker.

Unknown Speaker 1:58
Yes, I have that. It should just be like, it should be just like one. One screen is COVID still a thing? Yes.

Unknown Speaker 2:07
We should do that. No. danger. Yes, today you are? Oh, dear. All right, let’s do this. So we’re going to talk about getting more genuine listeners and talking about why your trailer format can help. I’m going to talk you through this listener acquisition kind of process, this flow that I’ve kind of adapted from basically just marketing, marketing a business.

Unknown Speaker 2:28
I’ll not bore you with the normal stuff. So we’re going to talk about the content hamster wheel and why most podcasters are on it, we’re going to talk about the listener acquisition flow on building the perfect podcast trailer, you can just steal all this format, you can just take screenshots, just copy and paste it, whatever you need. Just take it from this session. It’s all good. happy for you to do that, of course.

Unknown Speaker 2:49
So basically, the content the content hamster wheel is I think it’s something that most podcasters get into where, you know, you see, and I wrote about this today, actually. So I’m kind of probably going to open up a mine run, I’ve not decided yet. But you know, like a lot of podcasters say to you like I podcast, a podcast for 15 years. And I have published every single week, twice a week for 15 years. And like, That’s brilliant. And I really appreciate that. And I admire that. And I think it’s a fantastic thing.

Unknown Speaker 3:19
But very often those people don’t have that big numbers. And I kind of find that fascinating. And and also they’re more about it. It will this is the thing. And this is the thing that they’re mad about, which is that I’m more interested in. I know you are as well. Like what about the person that’s been in podcasting for one year and has got 10 extra downloads that that person’s got? Right, let’s look at, let’s look at them. What are they doing? Yeah, so this content hamster wheel is something that I think a lot of podcasters wear is a bit of a badge of honor, like I keep podcasting no matter what, like, what are you kidding me? If you’re not well don’t podcast. That’s, that’s crazy.

Unknown Speaker 3:53
You know, it’s, it’s a hamster wheel that we get on. And what we do is, we start feeling that we’re really busy with our podcast because we’re busy producing, producing, producing, producing. But then like a year in, we look back and nothing’s changed with the numbers. We’ve never gone up 5% 10% but yet, we’ve been really busy. And it’s because we’re on this hamster wheel.

Unknown Speaker 4:16
to distill that a little bit further, I kind of want to talk specifically about the market in the new acquisition of listeners. And that bit in the bottom left there where it says, hey, I’ve got a podcast go and subscribe right now. That’s pretty much all we do to market our podcast, literally. Whatever we do, we tweet about it. We Instagram it, we Facebook it, we email marketer, and the only thing that we do is go I’ve got a podcast go and subscribe now. I kinda used to work when no one was doing podcasts because it was a novelty. But now everyone’s doing podcast it’s just not quite enough.

Unknown Speaker 4:47
This is in my view, the best case the best case podcast marketing cycle for an independent podcast. All right, this is generally what they do. All right. You got three stages to it. You got pre release which is where the tease you with it.

Unknown Speaker 5:00
Coming up on the show I’ve got Jessica from we’re gonna talk about why COVID is a pain in the ass release Week. This week. Today is just yesterday, it was just the day before yesterday, it was just we talked about these things. And we do it every day we hammer it, we tweet it, we Instagram it, we put those fancy audiograms out. And then on the ongoing side of it over on the right hand side, we recycle it. So what we then do is we chuck it into buffer or Hootsuite or whatever. And we just keep saying I remember two years ago, and we have Dr. Jackson on. That stuff’s irrelevant, but I’m still promoting so. So you know, I actually don’t recommend the whole first column because what kind of call to action is there unless it’s on right now? There’s no exactly when people what’s coming up, they’re not gonna see it in their Facebook feed and write it down anywhere. And there’s nowhere to click. So it’s like, whatever’s coming up is really no one gives a but um, release week. I think there’s heavy promotion. And then Yeah, I do. I also do recycle it. I’m not gonna lie, because whatever it’s, I mean, I guess not for everyone. But some people, you know, Hey, did you miss this where this person was brilliant on your show? You know?

Unknown Speaker 6:08
Yeah, exactly. The release weeks, the big one that most people do. And I think, yeah, I’m going to kind of talk about I think there’s three types of podcast listener that we should be targeting. I totally agree pre released, there’s nowhere to send people unless you use which which I kind of talk about, but unless you use something like your, like your captivate single subscription link, so we always push people to like spark or rebellion.com slash Listen, where it captivate generates you this page where people can choose, you know, apple, podcasts, pocket casts, Spotify. So it’s this kind of nice catch all way of grabbing subscribers.

Unknown Speaker 6:42
So the problem with all that kind of marketing, the stuff that we’ve just talked about is that we, we measure downloads, we want listeners, but we asked for some subscribers.

Unknown Speaker 6:55
Like what’s going on there? It makes absolutely no sense, right? None of that is cohesive literally never thought of that before. It’s hilarious. But

Unknown Speaker 7:04
the bigger problem, though, is that this person this cartoon person, is he’s the listener. And they don’t really care where they don’t really care about us until we make them. So I see a tweet from this stranger saying look at Dave Jackson on the show. I don’t really care about that. Because I don’t know Dave Jackson, I don’t know the podcast. I don’t know the topic. What What’s the point in this thing might not even know what a podcast is? So we assume because we love our podcast, I love my Star Wars podcast.

Unknown Speaker 7:36
And I think it’s the best thing ever. So I’m wondering why that listener that see my tweet has not subscribed, because they don’t love it yet. So that’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna get them to love it.

Unknown Speaker 7:46

Unknown Speaker 7:48
we asked way too much way too soon. We ask people to subscribe. And we get a bit. car salesman. I don’t know why I put that in his car salesman, Ron Burgundy, obviously law. We imagine you walk into a car. I’ve been watching Cobra Kai, so you turn up at lorusso autos and Daniel the router comes out all smarmy and slimy in his suit, trying to sell you some kind of Lexus. You walked onto the car law. And he The first thing that he says to you the car salesman is I’ve got the paperwork here. Shall we get cracking? You just be thinking what what are you doing? It’s not the right time. You gotta Why me you got a diamond, you got to let me get to know you a little bit. And podcasting is no different to any of that. But we just don’t think about it like that, because we love our content.

Unknown Speaker 8:34
Plus, we ask people to subscribe.

Unknown Speaker 8:37
Right at the bottom there. 38% of people according to Tom Webster and the fantastic team at Edison and john and the people at Triton 38% of people in the infinite dial in 2019. I should update this for last year’s really believe you’ve got to pay to subscribe to podcasts because the word subscribe is used for Netflix and Amazon Prime. It’s used for all these little loot crates and boxes, you pay for a subscription. Would you be mad if I derailed you for just two minutes? Oh, no, shoo, shoo, shoo. So like Alison and I were just talking about this on the show. Because like everyone’s talking about how Amazon just bought wondery and Spotify, you know, bought whatever bought and something just bought, you know, series just bought Pandora. And all I see is this number. And I think if these people are all trying to be the Netflix of podcasting, that part of the industry is going to go right in the toilet. Because people don’t want to pay for that. There is no Netflix of audio, there will never be a Netflix of audio. And this is a giant waste of billions of dollars for no reason. Just wondering if you are with me on that. Or if you think it’s like exciting news in the industry. Or if you’re like why are they doing this? Because I feel like why are they doing this? I think he’s a little bit more nuanced. I agree with the principle of it. I think it’s a little bit more nuanced than that. I don’t think they’re trying to be the

Unknown Speaker 9:53
I don’t think they’re trying to be the Netflix of it. I think by virtue of podcasts in existing. That is the Netflix of podcasts.

Unknown Speaker 10:00
Okay, it’s on demand you get it where you want it. So and so far, yeah. But and I think it’s really more about,

Unknown Speaker 10:07
it’s more about repeat revenue from IP, you know, if you’ve got a massive wondering vendor that you paid 300 million for, you know, the p&l might show that actually, it’s going to take 10 years to get that back. But actually, if we increase the inventor, and if we increase the ad revenue, and if we can show attribution and whatever, all this good stuff that people talk about, you know, when they’re having a beer at podcast movement, you know, then it will, then you get your return back. So I think that kind of Netflix stuff is almost sailed a little bit. But I think it’s

Unknown Speaker 10:37
actually can see why people would think like, why have you spent 300 million on that, because all they see is 300 million. They don’t see maybe the strategy, and we don’t necessarily know the strategy. So I think you’re right, principally. Yeah. But I think there’s like lots of little layers to it and nuance to it. Yeah. Bradley says they’re buying data. And that might be true. But is it worth that much money? Can’t be it can’t be worth that much money? I just Yeah. No, I agree. I think it depends. I mean, it’s the buy in personal data. I mean, the only personal data you’ll get from OneDrive is people have signed up to the Wonder app. Right. And this is a whole privacy thing. I’ve got massive thoughts. You’re buying content, in which case they could just make themselves because Amazon has audible? Yeah, exactly. They could do but again, he speed to market. You know, it would it would did maybe might cost 150 million to build wonder his

Unknown Speaker 11:29
inventory, and then to market it and to get the download numbers and the other 100 and 50 million the buying for speed, you know, just out for our Yeah, that’s, I just think I think Mark my words. And then Yeah, all right. I’m done derailing it, sorry. No, no, he’s good. Well, the also the other thing to think about as well is remember that we see 300 million from the perspective of paying the mortgage every month, you know, they see 300 million as a as a that’s an acceptable loss, because we’ve got a fleet of drones delivering toothbrushes, you know, it’s it. It’s economies of scale isn’t it’s a different? Yeah, I can. I can’t imagine spending 300 million on anything, because, well, that wasn’t really but just like how there. That’s just a lot of money for a network, however good their content is.

Unknown Speaker 12:12
Isn’t that what Joe Rogan’s sold for Didn’t he gets 300 million? That’s one fucking show.

Unknown Speaker 12:18
There’s no one.

Unknown Speaker 12:21
I don’t know if it was less than that. Maybe? Even if it was 100. It’s one fucking show. Yeah, like, there’s no way it’s worth that and advertising, especially if they’re going to change this show, which they have. All right. That’s a whole nother webinar, I guess. But yeah, it is. We can talk about forever, all day. Yeah. But yeah, the pay the subscription side of it is difficult. So this is the thing you know, when we’re marked in our show all this stuff you right? People don’t want to subscribe, because they don’t know enough about us. They think you’ve got to pay for this thing. And it’s it’s a fact like the data has been presented

Unknown Speaker 12:56
1.3 million podcasts in the world when I started in podcasting, and I’m sure you’re the same, just what I was 2013 you were around the same I think 20 1120 1113 No, you’re right.

Unknown Speaker 13:07
Either way, it was a while ago, changes. Like, I think it was like less than 500,000. It was 220 when I started in 2013. notice is that all I remember is that it was 13% women hosted at the time. Wow, that’s jam shot. Yeah, now it’s like 50 something percent just like the population but that was crazy. Anyway. So Pete, let me change this light around.

Unknown Speaker 13:31
You in there, like I get this right that the light is way too bright. The other one that’s like those story lighting what you have going on? Well, you you made it better. But all right, is better.

Unknown Speaker 13:41
So the point that I’m getting with this one is that there’s there’s absolutely no sense doing the same stuff that worked in 2011 2012 2013 to market the podcast, but we are doing, but there are just that many more podcasts now. So we can’t expect the same results. And it comes down to this that for the most part, your marketing for your podcast is just not enough. It’s simply not enough. It’s two journeys to repeat. So

Unknown Speaker 14:05
the thing is, you can’t really do anything else without some kind of strategic angle to it. You know me? Yes. I’m always thinking like longer term stuff. I’m thinking kind of how can we connect the dots, and when we sometimes can’t even see the dots.

Unknown Speaker 14:16
So I kind of put this together this listener acquisition flow, which the goal of this is to give people enough of us potential listeners, this is all about getting new listeners in give people enough of us at the right time to cultivate the loyalty that we need. The recurring lesson is not just a lesson, and the advocacy so well, I’ll tell someone about us. All right, that’s what we want to do as podcasters.

Unknown Speaker 14:39
It’s a bit of a five step job. And I posit that there are five types of listener as a lurker, there’s an explorer, a listener, a subscriber and a fan. So I’m going to talk through each one of these.

Unknown Speaker 14:51
But the problem is, we always try and get people at that top step. We’re always like, go and subscribe. I’ve got a look at me. I’m on the internet. I’ve got a bot subscribe to me. Yeah. So

Unknown Speaker 15:00
People are always asking for that subscription. The problem is, you’d never, you’d never subscribed to anything else until you’d been marketed to and warmed up and teased a little bit and wine and dine, you know, you need the proof.

Unknown Speaker 15:15
So we’ve got to stop trying to acquire listeners right at this top, top level, even though it feels good to schedule 42,000 tweets a month, and tell people to subscribe. That’s activity for the sake of activity. It’s not going to do that much. All right? Because the new listeners are right at the other side. They just lurk and they’re just pondering, they’re trying to find the next new thing.

Unknown Speaker 15:36
So we’ve got to get to them all right.

Unknown Speaker 15:39
And the time is valuable that they don’t care. I don’t care about your podcast. I’m really sorry. I really don’t care about your podcast. But if you’re Alec steed, and you discuss why Terminator two covers daddy issues, and Batman Returns is all about the patriarchy. Like, I’m in for that. Because he is like, Are you kidding? Batman Returns? Yeah, exactly. And I’m looking at work. So this is me choosing to put my time into something. Have you listened to that, by the way? why our dads? It’s hilarious liberally. No, no, but I bet Scott would like it. Brilliant.

Unknown Speaker 16:12
So my time is valuable. And I rarely subscribe to podcasts unless I’m warmed up. Alright, so I’ll do it. Like everything else. It’s so much like dating. Yeah, exactly. What we’re trying to do is get people to come home with us after we’ve met.

Unknown Speaker 16:26
And it’s dumb.

Unknown Speaker 16:29
It is. It is it? It absolutely is. And

Unknown Speaker 16:33
let’s define what these people are. And then we’ll figure out how we can get to them. All right. So the lurker someone that’s kind of heard of you like maybe they know a little bit about you and the just the doing enough to kind of just know your name. You know, you and I have this all the time where you’ll talk about a show all you know, it’d be a network where we’ll know someone from someone else and it’ll just bite Yeah, kind of know the name. And I’m aware that should know more about that thing. I’m a query lurker.

Unknown Speaker 16:58
You know what? No, I’m a queen lurker, I love to lurk, and do nothing more. I thought you were like, looking around the queen. I was like, I need to know you pull it off, because that would be dangerous, I think. But

Unknown Speaker 17:12
I’m 2021 I’m, I always stay in the first two categories, I think we’ll explore is the interesting one. I’m kind of like you like I look around a little bit and then I’ll maybe I’ll click a few times, maybe I’ll go to your website. And you’ll put me off by showing me a doormat landing page to sign up to the email me or maybe you’ll put me off because you asked me to subscribe. And I’m like, I ain’t got time for that right now. Right. But I’m ready to sample the show. I’m ready to dig into the podcast. But you’ve asked too much too soon Am I ain’t giving you all that time, I’m not going to do that. Now the listener, this is what we think we want. But I’m a listener of we are a wire dance. I’m a listener of Jordan Sharma, listener of all sorts of different podcasts and mainly entertainment ones because, you know,

Unknown Speaker 18:01
like, it’s content for me, it’s like busman’s holiday, listening to podcasts about podcasts for me. So I’m kind of like, it’s an entertainment show that I want to listen to when I’m driving to work. I ain’t bothered if I missed five episodes. So I’m a listener.

Unknown Speaker 18:14
But even though I’ve had to press the button that says subscribe on it. If you think about what a subscription is, I used to have a subscription to a soccer football magazine, when I was younger, it came every week in the mail, without fail. That’s a subscription. It’s a without fail thing, I will consume it without fail. Just because I’ve pressed the subscribe button because no other button exists, doesn’t mean I’m actually a subscriber, it means that I’m a listener, and I dip in and dip out. And if I missed five episodes, I will look at what I’ve missed. And if none of them tickle my fancy, I’m gone. It doesn’t matter to me. I’ll listen to the most interesting that you say because no other button exists. Because that begs the question, is that really what we want?

Unknown Speaker 18:52
his subscribers he gives a shit. They subscribe, don’t we just want to be in the world that we are in?

Unknown Speaker 18:58
is a great, great point. I think that’s why Google are doing some very interesting things as well with surfacing episodes, as opposed to be kind of worried about subscriptions, you know, and it’s even Spotify the way they put the word follow in there. It’s a, there’s no, there’s no implication that you will get the thing right all the time, and you must consume a subtle change in pressure. Exactly. Yeah. So you’re right. I think what we want, I’d posit that we could skip over the subscribe a bit and actually get to the fun bit, which we’ll get to in a sec. But the subscriber is kind of someone that, you know, purposely seek out your show, you know, they purposely listen to most episodes and they’ll binge rather than saying, right, I’ve got Jessie’s show, Mark show and Ashley show in my in my list. And I’ve got three times this week. I can listen to podcasts, they will say I’m going to listen to have gestures and one of Ashley’s rather than got one of each because they want to listen they are subscribed to what you do, and they enjoy what you do. And then the fan. Like that’s the super people. They’re the people

Unknown Speaker 20:00
People that will lie advocate for you, maybe even pay you for something a membership or Patreon or whatever. They’re the people that will tell other people that they should be listening. Alright, so that’s kind of the floor. The problem is that’s really nice and fluffy. And that’s where most gurus at 97 bucks a month would stop. The problem is, like, we need a little bit of how, like, how are we going to get people through this? Alright. So what we’re going to do

Unknown Speaker 20:24
is, we need to stop asking people to subscribe and devise a way of getting them up the ladder. Alright, so what we do, in my view,

Unknown Speaker 20:33
is we create a podcast trailer, I’m a big advocate of this, it works, it does work, create a podcast trailer, there are two kind of formats that advocate the one that I’ll talk about now is the simplest one.

Unknown Speaker 20:45
And what we do is we create a 92nd trailer, I’ll give you a format later that you can just screenshot.

Unknown Speaker 20:51
And what we do is we every call to action that we put out there we tell people if you’re new to the show, forget this episode with Dave Jackson, or Jess or Mark asked on it. Just go and listen to the trailer. So when we do all that pre release stuff, because you might hate it, you might think that my voice sounds like a cat being strangled. You might think that my English accent.

Unknown Speaker 21:19
But I’d rather you only spent 90 seconds on it. And then just quickly and now that’s not for me. Oh, wow, this is brilliant. All right, so you push people to this 92nd trailer. And then what you do in that trailer, is you say to people, look, if you want more,

Unknown Speaker 21:36
I recommend Episode 2627. What and the way to define this. So this is moving people to be in an explorer with the curated content. Go to your analytics in captivate or wherever your podcast host is other podcasters are available. Go to captivate, look at your dashboard analytics, sort them by the the most listened to or the most downloaded over any given time frame 28 days all time, whatever you want to choose. recommend that episode. Because there’s a reason is the highest downloaded. And it’s probably because it’s the best content. So recommend that to them. So our trailer, and this is my podcast accelerator is three times per week is less than 10 minutes, and it teaches you how to create and design and to grow your own podcast. If you think you could benefit from that. Go and listen to Episode 12 where I tell you how you could create a trailer just like this for your show. And guess what? You can get it in any podcast app and podcast accelerated.com slash Listen, whatever. So this is not an intro. This is something that you put as episode one. No, no. moq is a trailer so when you captivate or your podcast hosts market is a trailer because Spotify and Amazon and Apple, they pull it out of the feed and the show is a trailer. It’s like a movie trailer. It will be put there at the top. It will also know you mark it as a trailer. I wasn’t sure if you’re saying mark it or mark it. So sorry. Yeah, that’s okay. So gonna set it up as a trailer. Yeah. And plus I’m taking notes not want to get it wrong.

Unknown Speaker 23:08
So make it a trip. So you can do that in your host just mark something as this is you should do first. Oh, yeah, like a commercial. Rafi says yeah, yeah. No, I know what a trailer is what I wasn’t sure is how you. I didn’t know that. That was a possibility and hosting that. You could just say, you know that you can indicate that this is like the, you know, in the beginning, there was the Word, whatever. I had no idea. Just here on my screen. I’ve got this is my trailer. A quick show if I pocket? No, it’s not in line to right at the beginning, because I didn’t call it trailer. I called it. Why should you listen? Let’s have a quick look at that great idea.

Unknown Speaker 23:44
There we go. So that trailer, so if I edit this

Unknown Speaker 23:49
right down here, episode type trailer, so most episodes are normal, or they can be bonus ones if they’re peripheral content around the normal feed. So you just mark it as a trailer, and it will mark it in Apple podcasts and Spotify and so on. As a trailer.

Unknown Speaker 24:04
I had no idea. So what we do just cancel that out. Otherwise, I will delete something well done.

Unknown Speaker 24:10
So what we do in that trailer, we tell people I recommend if you like what you’ve just heard in this 92nd trailer, you go and listen to episode x, and you find out which that episode should be from your analytics. You give them the best episode because why would you not? Next?

Unknown Speaker 24:28
moving people to explore and listener right. What we always assume is that people like our entire podcast, all right, but they might not they might tune in for one particular thing. So what we do and just you and I did this with the captivate insider stuff that we were trying out, we we had some sweet segments, I still love them. I still want to revitalize that show at some point.

Unknown Speaker 24:51
We give people relatable segments. So in our Star Wars Show, we’ve got the review and discussion. We’ve got the random spotlight, we’ve got

Unknown Speaker 24:58
a guest as well on podcast

Unknown Speaker 25:00
for that week, we had the exact opposite. We had the flattering rap, the flattering Ram. But we also have the other, didn’t we? I like the we have stupid shit in podcasting. Same thing. Yeah, what stupid shit is happening in podcasting this week? Oh, that was a segment. It was brilliant. It was really fun. Yeah, I loved it too. And what we do is we take, take that listener, sorry, we got some Lego like, I’m just interrupting, but we’ve got like,

Unknown Speaker 25:26
noise. And we’ve got. So what we do is we take that listener, someone that’s listening to it, you know, every odd show. And now and again, kind of listening and tuning in. We give them segments that they can listen to. And we can do more with segments later, which we can talk about separately. But we involve them, we give them behind the scenes stuff. So I always do like shout outs and stuff on my show. And I know you do the same. You know, if I get any listener that tweets me, and they’ll say something like Matt loved Episode 243, we talked about why your podcast marketing is not working out by brilliant. Thanks, Louise, give her a shout out on the next show. All right, and then I’ll let her know that that’s happened. So it takes a little bit of work, but I build that relationship. But that’s a cool thing. Because people then the mind only tuned in for one particular bit. But guess what they’ve got to do to get to that one particular bit, download the show. And then mind listen to the rest of it. So we start to nurture them through by by creating these little tests, alright, then, to turn them into a subscriber. So as someone that will consistently put you at the top of their listening list, we give them extra access, we give them webinars, we give them office hours, we give them Facebook Lives. We do in person meetups or events, we do personal communications, like don’t hide your email address, you’re not that important. Just give them your email address, let them email you. And you have the two way chat and you let them see that you’re a person. And then they become a fan. You become friends with them, you get to know them. You get to know their kids, you get to know what’s going on why they have an operation, are they doing well in life? are they struggling with something and you build up that friendship? And that’s how you scale that up. And even worse,

Unknown Speaker 27:05
yeah, sorry, I didn’t mean to, sorry, you were on a roll. I didn’t mean to crush it. But

Unknown Speaker 27:10
there’s a differentiation here that I think you should pull out when you do this presentation. And that is that like a normal fan. Like when you think of fan you think of Star Trek people dressing up and like going to conventions to like worship the ground you walk on. But your definition of a fan is completely different than that your definition of a fan is really a friend that you’re talking to when you’re creating your content, someone that you know, relates to your content, someone that you know, because you had a conversation,

Unknown Speaker 27:42
you know, needs your content for whatever reason. And I think when we say, Oh, we need fans, like, I think what most podcasters are thinking or, you know, is like the unknown face out there that worships us. But I love this definition so much better. Because really, I mean, podcasting, even though it seems lonely, it really is all about connection. And I think this, this is a piece that’s often forgotten.

Unknown Speaker 28:06
Yeah, I agree entirely. It’s a distinction made purely for the reason that you said that, which is it’s podcasting. And it’s a very specific medium for fandom. And I assure you can be doctor death. And you can have fans that never interact with assure, but for the 99% is all about the people that you connect with, it’s about giving them the access to the, to the person that they’re listening to everyday when they go for a run, it’s about having that connection. Because let’s think about it, you know, we’re asking people to give us five bucks a month or 10 bucks a month on Patreon. Like, that’s almost harder than selling a 500 bucks piece of kit or something for 500. Because the 500 bucks is like, you pay the thing, and you get the thing. Like, that’s easy. Whereas this, it’s 10 bucks, like that’s almost, it’s almost too little of an amount to matter to me. So I’m kind of questioning it. Like, I feel like I’m giving you the 10 books, as opposed to go and buy stamps.com you know what I mean? It’s a different kind of vibe.

Unknown Speaker 29:06
So it’s fascinating to me, I think I think it’s very interesting stuff. And when we look back at this, which is that that that release marketing cycle, suddenly doesn’t look enough. Now, I’m not saying that we don’t do this, but I’m saying that we can’t do this anymore in isolation. Okay, so what we’re gonna do is all the calls to action, everything that you do outside of your release week, here’s the episode.

Unknown Speaker 29:32
always send people to this trailer, get them to the trailer, get them to the trailer, get them to the trailer because he’s literally investment. The trailer should be constructed in such a way that you can push people through to the next thing and they will move themselves up if you design your show properly. Okay, I do it all the time. This is my beats a bit out. I did this now actually. But I do this all the time. My trailer is pinned to the top of my What’s this called Twitter, social media network. I pin it to

Unknown Speaker 30:00
At the top of Twitter, and people listen to the trailer, the trailer has got over double the amount of listens than any other episode of my show. So I’ve got what 48% conversion rate to subscribers, whatever that might be. And it shows that it kind of works, it kind of sort of qualifies the leads a little bit and make sure you get the right people. And I stick it at the top of my website. So again, this is just a captivate play, I just embed it right at the top of the of the websites, the first thing you will get on my show, no matter where you listen to the show will be the trailers, I don’t want to waste your time if it’s not for you.

Unknown Speaker 30:38

Unknown Speaker 30:40
trailer format, just copy and paste this format. Yeah, just Nick it, just borrow it, screenshot it, whatever you want to do write it down. This is the format who you are a short line on your background, the days and times that you release your episodes, the format of your episodes and where to find your podcast. So just copy that format.

Unknown Speaker 30:58
Nice and easy to do it, you can do it in that order, you can mix it up a little bit. It’s very, very simple. Alright, super simple to do.

Unknown Speaker 31:06
And these are some big things that I would always recommend, you know, some people might disagree with them, that’s fine.

Unknown Speaker 31:13
Do it approximately 90 to 120 seconds long. Because how long a movie trailers? Two minutes? Yeah, there’s a reason for that attention spans.

Unknown Speaker 31:22
Don’t do your daft music introduction. If you like to music introduction, that’s cool. No one wants to hear it on a trailer. Like it’s cool, we understand that you’ve got one, don’t do it on the trailer, because there’s no need. Or if you’d like if the first thing you hear is a highly produced injury, just like this is cool, this person knows how to click. So all you need to do if you want some music, leave it running underneath, it’s nice to have a bit of ambience, but just straight into the content.

Unknown Speaker 31:50
And the big thing there that big blue text with the orange highlights. The last thing to be really clear on is it’s very important to make sure that you tell people that your show is free to listen to. And it’s available in any app that supports podcasts. Now, not everyone knows what a podcast is. And that’s a whole other talk that we can talk about the podcast discoverability triangle, we can dig into that separately. The

Unknown Speaker 32:11
the call to actions dodgy at best because all we’ve got is wherever you get your podcasts go and listen to it. If you want to do some embed, or if you host on captivate, we give you a free, what we call the the single subscription link. So it’s yourdomain.com slash Listen, which will curate all of the apps out for you. And people can choose where they want to listen to I use that all the time. But it’s really clear that you say it’s free. And you can get it where you get your podcasts as a worst case. Alright.

Unknown Speaker 32:38

Unknown Speaker 32:40
that’s a really quick run through of that. That’s the key thing is that a lot of people see people as downloads because that’s what we measure. We are we want listeners and we ask for subscribers. If you use that format, strategize around that format, it will work it will take time, but the quality of listeners and the quality of funds that you get will be far superior to just some transient downloads. So just yeah, coffee. Allah Thank you. Thank you Thank you Thank you for for that. What a cute presentation by the way.

Unknown Speaker 33:13
Those adorable Do you guys want to Rafi and actually if you want you can unmute and ask whatever questions you want. We have like 10 minutes. You certainly don’t have to do you have 10 minutes I’m just making sure cuz I really yeah, Mark Yeah, I’m good. I’m not doing anything else. Yeah, okay.

Unknown Speaker 33:30
So that was really interesting. And I can tell you thought that through like you’ve sat and thought that through quite a bit. You know, like it’s just one of those things where

Unknown Speaker 33:40
sometimes it just takes a minute to see a problem and you it’s like in the back of your head like this is always in the back of my head is like I know we’re clearly doing something wrong because why are you doing three shows a week and you have no listeners like that makes no sense. And and I already came to the conclusion that it’s because most podcasters don’t know how to market period because even when they are doing those lame coming up here it is there it was it’s still not interesting like I I like to advise people to write even write those posts as if you’re writing like for like a salacious magazine headline because it makes it you know, you know, learn why you’re doing everything wrong on today’s podcast, you know, like stuff that like really draws people in but I still don’t like this is so much more I never even thought about doing a trailer but I love that you

Unknown Speaker 34:29
broke it out so that like the subscribers really he’s he’s not sure he or she is not your target. Like the only difference between a subscriber and an explorer is that they’re anal retentive enough to want to get the episode when it’s out

Unknown Speaker 34:48
well the switch Yeah, that’s right. I mean that the Explorer in the in the subscriber, like you said that the Explorer is a really where kind of the magic happens like you’ve got to get then

Unknown Speaker 35:00
You’ve got to get them listening to more than one episode. That’s the key with those guys like get them listening to more than one episode because if you do that, and that that’s why I always recommend like this behind the scenes stuff, all this kind of personal outreach stuff because if I if I you tweet me or you sign up to my email list or whatever, or you send me an email saying Marco what was that crap in Episode 12, dude, and I’ll be like, on episode 13 I’ll be like, do you know what Jesse mom was saying? What was that crap and when I stood back and looked at it, that really was crap. So I fixed it just thank you so much. And you’re like I did that. And

Unknown Speaker 35:36
it gets people involved and

Unknown Speaker 35:39
you can even create segments around that where you you know where you give like we did with that that flattering grandma stupid she the flat around was just like, this week’s flattering Ramiz Daniel J. Lewis. his haircut. Yeah, you know, it was just random. Stay fun. But you’re right. It is fun to call people out and to be mentioned on a show. That’s a really good point. So I had Rafi unmute, and now she’s even got her camera and everything.

Unknown Speaker 36:08
I’m at work. So I had to Oh, sorry. Oh, my God. No, that’s okay. No, that’s okay. I work in a pediatric clinic. So I was like, um, and there might be screaming and crying and all those things

Unknown Speaker 36:18
like, this media play.

Unknown Speaker 36:21
This has been amazing. And, you know, I just I started my podcast without an without an outro. And then I just added one, but now I’m thinking, I don’t know, I’m kind of thinking maybe I’ll do something different in my outro lecture, like you get the end. Yeah, like maybe do one reflecting back on those episodes, like, add that in my outro. Kind of, like, if you love this, you know, that kind of thing. And it’s that idea of a goal, instead of the typical subscribe and rate review and all those things. You know, you know, I don’t think I’ve ever said subscribe. At the end of the show, I usually give them my social handles. And like one call to action, like, by the way, we have a checklist if you want to sign up for it. Or, by the way, we just opened the squad like I usually do one call to action, and then where to find us on social. I don’t even ask people to subscribe. Because in the I mean, even though I couldn’t verbalize this concisely, I have always thought what is the point? Right now? Well, you know, what I have done to is I always go back to Instagram, because that’s where I live, basically. But lately I’ve been doing because my my audience is child free women, I always tell them to share this podcast with your child free BFF. We share what your podcast is about I forget. Yeah. So my podcast, it’s the one that’s on my zoom is not the correct one. But I lost a podcast or early early 2020. With a migration issue. That’s a whole nother topic. But anyway. So now I have not a mama life. And it’s a podcast for

Unknown Speaker 37:56
child free women.

Unknown Speaker 37:57
But I ironically, I did an episode about childfree men. And that episode is the highest downloaded episode. Well, that’s very interesting. Oh, because of that. I recently changed my Instagram, not a Mama, I recently changed that it’s for men, it’s for women, and then I put men in parentheses.

Unknown Speaker 38:17
That’s nice. Yeah. So that one, roughly sorry to jump in there. I would, I would be tempted to kind of test that a little bit further. So I would maybe do some really specific stuff around that, like with the men side of things like really kind of start to test your titles out and also where you put your calls to action. I’m going to quickly show you some data.

Unknown Speaker 38:39
This is my data. And it’s common is this is a common trend. This is my webplayer coverage. from just a very, like small hobby podcast.

Unknown Speaker 38:53
Look at the drop off at the end. This is listening consumption. Whoa. So Wow. Yeah, if again, I would be tempted to put all your important stuff at the beginning. And I’ll give you a very quickly as well. An example of

Unknown Speaker 39:09
just how I used to do my podcast with the accelerated podcast and versus how I do it now. And the key thing with this one is that you’ve got to get people to the end, you’ve got to get them through the beginning. And that’s the real key with I think with any kind of podcast is getting them through the beginning. So what I used to do was this, I just go

Unknown Speaker 39:31
Hey, welcome to the podcast accelerator. This is Mark aska, CEO and co founder of rebel based media where you can you know, join captivate di FM and today we’re gonna talk about email marketing for podcasters. That was version one. About 60 episodes in I changed it and the stats shot up this was the new version.

Unknown Speaker 39:50
Why is your email marketing as a podcast and not succeeding as you wish it would be? That’s what I’m going to talk about today here on the accelerator.

Unknown Speaker 39:59

Unknown Speaker 40:00
Just subtle change and the numbers shot up and the retention even now a little bit the drop off the same at the end because as soon as someone just gets a sniff of the end delay, I’m saving three minutes am off. And it’s really important to kind of get

Unknown Speaker 40:15
that data is from your hosts from from captivate. Yeah, that was captivated. I just shared then. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 40:21
That’s interesting. No, I was just saying the same thing. I was like, wait a minute. Now my appeal just short. Does that make a difference? Like my episodes like, that’s one of the things that I market is that I’m very binge worthy, because my episodes are literally like 14 minutes or less. Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, gotcha. That’s cool, though, that you can see that I’m I mean, I’ve never looked at that. I try to train myself not to look at my stats so that I don’t get all tied up in my worth and the results of what I’m seeing. So I don’t look that often. But I guess it means that I’ve not also seen like, where do people get bored? Where do people tune in? Where do people

Unknown Speaker 41:00
won’t like? So what’s interesting, I’ll, I’ll do another quick screen share as well. Just because I think this is a lot of people don’t test this stuff. Let me switch show. I’ll go on to the

Unknown Speaker 41:10
or the show for this. Give me one second. So where are we? analytics?

Unknown Speaker 41:15
This is just our little Star Wars Show that we do for a laugh.

Unknown Speaker 41:19
Like that the analytics are low. The numbers are, you know, that just hobby show numbers.

Unknown Speaker 41:26
So we kind of show you the daily trends and what’s going on. And we show when you publish so you can start seeing your peaks and troughs. But the thing that I’m really interested in showing you is if I look at

Unknown Speaker 41:39
episode comparison, let’s go all time.

Unknown Speaker 41:42
Highest downloaded Episode

Unknown Speaker 41:46
750. Guess what that highest download episode is it’s the trailer look 50% almost a 50% drop off.

Unknown Speaker 41:53
Anyway, if I click here for the analytics, let me show you this. This is one thing that I’m very interested to weed people out. Yeah, exactly. I was pretty that is Oh, God. So pretty narrow. We’ve not got the data for it. She was before we launched analytics. Let me give you a recent one. I want to show you cumulative, trending.

Unknown Speaker 42:12
show you this one.

Unknown Speaker 42:15

Unknown Speaker 42:18
This is what happens over time. All right. So this is the launch date. And that works well. And I can see what’s kind of going on, you know, this is just everyday for the last since episode was published. If I click this one, it shows me what happens cumulatively. So it shows me how the episode number builds. Now, what’s interesting with this is, let’s say that you do a little bit of marketing here. And suddenly there’s a huge jump there.

Unknown Speaker 42:43
This is when you can start to test things, you can start to test Oh, wait a minute, I changed my title of this episode there. And suddenly, rather than having the word men in brackets, I put the word men out of brackets right at the front. And so you start to see what’s going on with that.

Unknown Speaker 42:58
So I’d kind of recommend that you test that sort of stuff as well. And look at things like and this is not up to it pitch, I promise you, but it’s just how we

Unknown Speaker 43:08
how we market is fine. Also, though to do I mean,

Unknown Speaker 43:13
it’s so much better looking than other stats that I’ve seen.

Unknown Speaker 43:18
I think Yeah, it does align. I mean, yeah. And it does allow you to like play with what works and what doesn’t work in a way that you can’t do anywhere else. But what’s fun about it is is this will show you day one comparison. So roughly you talked about should put them in in the bracket. So yeah, I saw some results. When I did that. If we use that as the example, do one episode, which is essentially the same episode but reframed in a slightly different manner split test it, give yourself two episodes with two different titles, and look at how the trend how they compare to each other. How do they map up against each other? Did you get more downloads on a specific timeline, because of this thing of this thing. So if you start to dig into that, what you’ll tend to find and I’m, I’ve got an episode about being purposeful coming out on Monday, where

Unknown Speaker 44:05
if you can put less effort into your marketing, but get better results, because you decide based on what the data tells you.

Unknown Speaker 44:15
So that’s again, just some stuff that I’d recommend that you can do like today, just to start with with boosting things. Sorry, yes, that did turn into a bit of a demo, but I didn’t know but now but I love that actually, I’m looking at those. I’m looking at those analytics, analytics and how pretty it looks. I was like, because captivate was my number two choice and I went with someone else. But now looking at all this. I’m like, Oh, these are so

Unknown Speaker 44:38
there are podcasters that do just like on others just saying. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. And it’s

Unknown Speaker 44:46
I mean, that he’s all about how you use the debt. You know, there’s no bad podcasters out there. You know, they’re all great and everyone’s got great support teams. The features are all great. It’s more about how you are going to use the platform. So there’s nothing wrong with whoever you went with it’s margin.

Unknown Speaker 45:00
It’s more just what can you do with the data and it is just having that. I think that mindfulness about what you see and how you put it into action when you see it. And I think that differentiates like the people that have been in podcasting for two years, and have got a bazillion downloads versus those that have been in it for 15 years, and I’ve got like, 1000 downloads. Yeah, I think that’s the difference. Yeah. Can I tell you that? What made me choose? Yeah, sure. Okay, so it went to it came down to captivate, because I’m completely obsessed with the podcast hosts and calling and all those people there. So they always, always mentioned you, but it came down to captivate or buzzsprout. And I went with buzzsprout, just because I don’t want to be like, I want to stay away from like being obsessed at looking at my numbers. And they email me, they emailed me that little gamification. And really, it was between that and the show notes snippet. Like, which one do I want more? So just

Unknown Speaker 45:55
that’s working. That’s interesting. I mean, I wanted to share, that’s why I wanted to I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. We’ve actually got a lot of that stuff coming as well, because we do get a lot of people saying, like, just Can you email me a summary or can you gamify we, we do have a lot of stuff coming down that wire as well. So it’s, it’s, I mean, what I love, I love Kevin Thompson, and Alberto. Fantastic. So you’re in really, really good hands there. And I’m sure they’ll do snippets. I mean, why would you not as a time saver, we’ll do gamification, why would you not? It’s a great thing. Yeah. And it’s really just about making sure you’re in in safe hands. And you’re definitely in safe hands. There’s no Yeah, yeah. And neither my experience with losing everything earlier last year. That’s why Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah. And then it was also at the start of COVID. So it was kind of like a double whammy. So yeah, but I’m over the horrible

Unknown Speaker 46:52
Well, this is an awesome No, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. If you guys are watching this and you want to check out captivate go to She Podcasts comm forward slash captivate. To sign up you can also email Mark and I give them your email. Do you mind? Yeah, mark at Rebel base with an EOD media dot i Oh, and thank you for this presentation. It was amazing. I appreciate it.

Unknown Speaker 47:17
Do you have a hold on

Unknown Speaker 47:21
I’m just gonna stop recording.

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